Skip navigation
Library

Elder Scrolls V

749 replies [Last post]
Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 I expect elves to be called elves, and only rarely mer. 

 

As for being carved in a mountain, they would lack the tools and materials for their favored style, but carving out an entire mountain rather than just settle on it is the Dwemer style. Never could leave well alone. And aside from that one time it worked alright. 

gritz's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/23/2010

Lady N wrote:

Because its also a common real-world misconception. What the average person thinks when they see "Dwarf" is only tangentially related to the Dwemer. Hell, when he was talking about cities built atop Dwarven ruins the first thing that came to my mind was Moria, not Dagon Fel. 

 

100% agree with your concerns. With Howards talking about his love of the LoTR movies and his philosophy of finding things to *remove* from games to make them more accessible, little things like that stop being innocuous and start being red flags.

 

But being a PC RPG fan lends itself to a huge amount of cynicism so maybe it's just me.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 I find his motivation for shaving things down admirable, at least, in that he wants, rather than 100 choices that don't effect much, having a few that do. I'll have to wait to see how well the shaving down plus perks is implemented, but if nothing else the motives are good.

gritz's picture
Offline
Joined: 08/23/2010

Streamlining seems antithetical to type of games the Elder Scrolls aspire to be. Instead of the developer deciding what a player should find meaningful and casting everything aside (Bioware style), they should find things to add and let the player make his or her own mind about what draws them into the world.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 The thing about that though is that almost nobody has the kind of money and manpower to not only have the sheer number of choices people are asking for and having any of those choices mean anything. I mean, if I thought it were possible to have the amount of choices Daggerfall offered but have any of them matter, then I would be clamoring for it. 

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

I'm not asking for choice, or any real complexity. I'm asking for them to give the illusion of complexity. The Reduran bug houses are a good example: they are never explained, but their presence implies the existence of some reason for them. It implies cultural complexity, fauna that we don't see, building methods unknown to us, etc. Similarly, saying "Dwemer" instead of "dwarf" carries with it the entire Dwemer culture, known and unknown. Bioware does this with their environments: for each linear path through a level there is an epic background that suggests an open world, a culture, a peoples, that we cannot visit but that we know exist. 

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying, but my particular standpoint is both the idea that, since it is a human province that entire complexity needs to be through the human lens, which we have a certain pre-existing idea what that will be, as well as (dun dun DUN thunderbolt) the marketing standpoint. In the video, he was talking about how TES dwarves are different. If he had said "our Dwemer are different" then the average person wouldn't know what he was talking about. I mean, if he had the time to go into "elves call themselves -mer and they were the Dwemer" then sure, but for the purposes of early development marketing videos saying Dwarves was simply the way things would have to go.

Like if, rather than establishing how the Dragons speak fire rather than breathe it, if he had said 'out Jills do this" then only we would know or care what that signifies. because I am still assuming they are the Jills.

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

"Our Dwarves are different: they are actually elves that call themselves 'Dwemer.' The Dwemer..." 

 

Yea, I'm probably being too critical on an unscripted interview with a mainstream mag. On the other hand, last time Todd called Oblivion "hell" and thats what we got, plus 4 years of having to debunk "oblivion = hell" posts. 

 

I just really want to believe that this is going to be awesome. 

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

 Well that's why I like this forum. People only find it if they're really into lore, or they leave. So sure, he can use the mainstream equivalent terms in the mainstream magazines and we can do as I am often tempted and just leave BGSF. I'm really only there regarding upcoming things anyways, and it doesn't harm us to have other people jump to bizzare conclusions. 

cpt.Od's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/02/2010

Anyway, beast races have undergone cosmetic revision: scarabs for Ra'gada, lttle grumite things for Argonians, and ... something else for Khajiit. Yeah right, but I can dream. Seriously, races don't gel with what we know about their cultures. The disparity is jarring, by my pov.  It must be because the cultures were made for the race, instead of the race for the culture.

Offline
Joined: 01/01/2011

Lady N wrote:

"Our Dwarves are different: they are actually elves that call themselves 'Dwemer.' The Dwemer..." 

 

Yea, I'm probably being too critical on an unscripted interview with a mainstream mag. On the other hand, last time Todd called Oblivion "hell" and thats what we got, plus 4 years of having to debunk "oblivion = hell" posts. 

 

I just really want to believe that this is going to be awesome. 

 

Todd doesn't strike me as a lore buff or someone whos knowledgeable on the Elder Scrolls universe, although I reckon he's got plenty working under him that do. I wouldn't worry or take it to heart about him calling them dwarves, he's not the only one as well since his lead sound engineer did the exact same thing in one of the videos.

I'm not surprised though considering the Dwemer weapons/armour thats in oblivion refers to them as Dwarven gear, rather than Dwemer, although that could just be the in-game misconception thats built into the TES universe, but that does bug me more than him saying Dwarves in an interview.

 

I do feel that BES are dumbing down the series to make them more 'accessible'. I've taken a look at the interface screenshots and the glimpses of the in-game menu, all I get is this console impression stuck in my head from those images...

 

Still can't wait for Skyrim though! And despite the negative wind, I'd say it will still be good. But the evolution of the Elder Scrolls series is quite clear...

 

Each new game loses its complexity and depth, and is replaced with simplicity and openness.

Offline
Joined: 06/30/2010

I don't know... I think dumbing down is just a natural process for anything in life when it reaches mainstream popularity. I never played Redguard or Daggerfall or the older games, but I played the crap out of Morrowind. I think it's a masterpiece and a staple of what all RPGs should do with their games, but I don't remember it being as popular with the masses as Oblivion was. And Oblivion was very much dumb downed compared to Morrowind. There's no arguing that. So, yes, I think that's a good example of what happens with something gains a lot of mainstream hype and popularity.

Executives of such games are going to be more wary of what they try, for fear out of coming up with something that won't be as popular as their last game. I don't blame anyone for that, to be honest with you. In a lot of ways I don't like it, but it doesn't make good business sense to do something you don't know will work when you already have a formula that proved to work very well. Case in point, Oblivion. A lot of us don't like a lot of things they did with it, but it sold. Actually, that's a fairly large understatement, wouldn't you say? They sold the hell out of that game. Maybe you don't like that it was dumb downed and way more accessible than Morrowind, but Bethesda isn't going to fix what clearly isn't broken. The gaming business is just that... a business. Like it or not, Todd Howard isn't stupid.

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

Morrowind is easily the most complex of the games when it comes to lore, and even in it most of the complexity was implied or in the background. I think it might have been an outlier of sorts, due either to some bizarre set of coincidences or due to the people working on it. Daggerfall was the most complex one gameplay wise. I don't think "dumbing down" is a trend when that is considered. 

Offline
Joined: 06/30/2010

Indeed. Both lore and gameplay should be taken into account when discussing whether a game is dumbed down or not.

Offline
Joined: 07/03/2010

Redsrock wrote:

but Bethesda isn't going to fix what clearly isn't broken.

 

Yeah...

 

I would think that when you describe a game being dumbed down, it means the devs broke it somehow. 

 

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

"breaking" is very subjective, and "dumbed down" is a shitty, meaningless phrase that we need to stop using in order for any of our arguments to have legitimacy. 

 

General "we."

Offline
Joined: 12/06/2010

Lady N wrote:

"breaking" is very subjective, and "dumbed down" is a shitty, meaningless phrase that we need to stop using in order for any of our arguments to have legitimacy. 

 

General "we."

 

  We is offended.

Offline
Joined: 01/16/2011

If you consider how core gameplay in any game franchise has evolved over the last couple of decades, the simplification that we see in TES is entirely predictable.  I hate to use the phrase "dumbing down" (sounds way too snobbish), but fact remains that as games begin to reach wider audiences, developers need to put hooks in them that will keep this non-hardcore customer base coming back.

 

Case in point - the PoP franchise.  The first game was a true masterpiece, just brilliantly presented and punishingly hardcore gameplay.  The second game kept the difficulty in, improved the graphics a little.  By then PoP had become a recognizable game name, and Broderbund went 3D with the third game.  Bombed, basically due to crap gameplay and 3D graphics that were uglier than hell.  Cue hibernation, until they blow everybody out the water with The Sands of Time. 

 

Now, the Sands of Time was a fantastic game, truly path breaking in how the platforming was implemented.  Yet, older fans of the series can see that the way mistakes are punished is far less severe than in the game that started it all.  Does it take away from the tense, white knuckled tension that kept rising for the hour that your game lasted with the first PoP?  Certainly.  But they replaced it with some truly awesome (yet acessible to the casual gamer) gameplay, gloriously acrobatic and freeflowing combat and an overall cinematic gaming experience.  

 

Was it easier to play?  Sure.  Was it designed to keep casual gamers happy?  Absolutely.  But did they nail it as a high quality game?  Yes, they did.

 

Bethesda is trying to do something similar, and this has nothing to do with whether the game is being played on a console or a PC.  Removing many of the RPG elements in favor of a more action-oriented approach is entirely directed at newcomers to the genre, making it easier for them to play more.

 

My complaint with Oblivion was not with the decision itself, more how it was implemented.  The leveling system was completely counter-intuitive and wasn't explained ANYWHERE, making for some quite frustrating mid-game moments until I figured out how it worked and started over.  The NPC faces sucked, but graphics alone don't make immersion happen.  It was the bad voices that compounded this for me.  Third person view was useless in most cases, and needed more work.  

 

As for the rest, I thought they got it largely right.  Sure, there was some repetition in the dungeons and the Oblivion worlds, but Morrowind had repetitive quests.  The conversation system was tacky, but you could argue that the combat system in Morrowind was a joke.  In return for putting up with some of these glitches, we got the best looking RPG world ever (at that point), lots of content (quests and lore), fantastic music and solid gameplay.

 

In the end, nothing is perfect.  Morrowind wasn't (no matter how many of us have rose tinted specs on when it comes to that game), neither was Oblivion, nor will Skyrim be.  As long as they correct some of the obvious cock-ups from the last instalment (and it looks like they are), we should be thankful that we have a fifth game to play at all.

Offline
Joined: 06/30/2010

I didn't hate Olbivion, I just didn't like it nearly as much as Morrowind. But I'm sure you've heard this from hundreds of other people.

And KnightMariel, I'm saying that despite complaints about Oblivion, it sold very well. So Bethesda probably wouldn't want to do a whole lot of changing because it's not as if Oblivion was a dud. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself very well, which could easily be the case.

Then again, saying that they won't change a whole lot when they're using an entirely different game engine is rather contradictive, isn't it? Perhaps I should just shut up. No wonder I lurk more than I post when it comes to these discussions...

Offline
Joined: 07/03/2010

Redsrock wrote:

I didn't hate Olbivion, I just didn't like it nearly as much as Morrowind. But I'm sure you've heard this from hundreds of other people.

And KnightMariel, I'm saying that despite complaints about Oblivion, it sold very well. So Bethesda probably wouldn't want to do a whole lot of changing because it's not as if Oblivion was a dud. Maybe I'm just not explaining myself very well, which could easily be the case.

Then again, saying that they won't change a whole lot when they're using an entirely different game engine is rather contradictive, isn't it? Perhaps I should just shut up. No wonder I lurk more than I post when it comes to these discussions...

 

You explained it very well. As what Lady N said, "broken" is subjective. What Bethesda sees as a commercial success, RPG elitists see it as a broken product that set a bad standard for future RPGs. Oblivion did establish the strategy Bethesda wanted to approach, which is brand recognition. Look at Fallout 3 for example. It's exactly what you said. Rather than developing an isometric turn-based game, they created a sandbox game more akin to Oblivion. I don't believe there's any trend to speak off, especially when you're just making a comparison between two games. But, it's not surprising that Oblivion set a standard for Bethesda's future titles.

Offline
Joined: 07/03/2010
Offline
Joined: 07/07/2010

Animation engine overhaul is good news. I heard some guy on the Escapist forums say that Bethesda's head animator got his job through nepotism, but I couldn't pry anymore gossip out of him.

 

And they defiantely did need a new landscape system. Oblivion's mountains (smooth lumps of earth with rocks sticking out) were dire.

B
B's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/14/2010

All of it sounds great.  Let's hope the game is really as good as the article makes it sound.

 

As a skilled assassin, myself, this sounds intriguing:

 

“Traditionally in an assassination quest, we would pick someone of interest and have you assassinate them,” Howard says. “Now there is a template for an assassination mission and the game can conditionalize all the roles – where it happens, under what conditions does it take place, who wants someone assassinated, and who they want assassinated. All this can be generated based on where the character is, who he's met. They can conditionalize that someone who you've done a quest for before wants someone assassinated, and the target could be someone with whom you've spent a lot of time before.”

 

Offline
Joined: 07/07/2010

It sounds like they're going to be procedurally generating dungeon crawl quests as well. That probably means less interesting, custom-made content and context for the quest, but maybe it will serve the purpose of padding out an ever more slimmed down and focused game.

Lady N's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2010

I'm actually thinking the opposite. If the game can handle making generic fetch quests by itself that ought to free up quest designers for actual fun stuff. 

Offline
Joined: 07/09/2010

Maybe I shouldn't say this for fear of being All Authorative and shit, but, guys, Skyrim is seriously in good hands. It's a return to form that is both the best of Morrowind and the best of Oblivion.

 

Yeah, I wrote that last part. *I* did.

 

We're going back to Tamriel, people. Show some hope.

 

 

Offline
Joined: 07/07/2010

Michael Kirkbride wrote:

Maybe I shouldn't say this for fear of being All Authorative and shit, but, guys, Skyrim is seriously in good hands. It's a return to form that is both the best of Morrowind and the best of Oblivion.

 

Yeah, I wrote that last part. *I* did.

 

We're going back to Tamriel, people. Show some hope.

 

That is good to hear.

 

I've been extremely jaundiced elsewhere on the web because, unsurprisingly, GameInformer sucks at consoling me.

 

Are they going to start calling it Thu'um soon, at least?

Offline
Joined: 07/09/2010

"Are they going to start calling it Thu'um soon, at least?"

 

In a mag like Game Informer? C'mon now. In 200 words or less, would you make sure to have the space to explain that Thu'um means an extra special form of magical shouting? Or would you talk about the new magic system in general?

 

I must be getting pragmatic in my old age. AE PADHOME ALTADOON.

 

There. That's better. Whew.

 

 

 

Offline
Joined: 11/28/2010

 Nothing wrong with pragmatism, as long as it's tempered by a grain of good, old-fashioned insanity.

Jeroic's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/28/2010

Khevsureti wrote:

Animation engine overhaul is good news. I heard some guy on the Escapist forums say that Bethesda's head animator got his job through nepotism, but I couldn't pry anymore gossip out of him.

 

 

Well there's your answer right there.

 

Guys, MK's right about the pragmatic thing. This is the advertising stage, they need to get as many people hyped as possible, and since even the bare knowledge that it's happening has had us hyped already, they don't need to focus on us in their marketing because they know we'll buy it. 

 

I expect in-game we'll here Thu'um and Dwemer tossed around a lot more than we will before November.